Comments on: The Long Story of Montrealâ€™s Airport Train

By: Keith Campbell

Keith Campbell — Wed, 25 Sep 2019 16:49:47 +0000

Good discussion in the comments here, years later: EDMX, your link for the pics of the heroic Park Avenue underground Mirabel train line don’t work anymore! does anyone have a link? would love to see the diagrams of this plan.

By: glabbyhaha

glabbyhaha — Thu, 25 Oct 2018 02:07:03 +0000

Judging by the semi-sanctioned westard extension of the Pink-Line into Lachine, it morphing into a through-city converted electrified Lakeshore Line wouldn’t surprise me. I suspect ADM will keep their station box dormant until the advent of business-class express service branching into the Lakeshore Line, much like the Heathrow Express. I find the REM’s connectivity into the airport to be a gracious nod to your average MontrÃ©alais; I’m suspicious, however, of their driverless trains come meddlesomely icy weather. Along with big business, the Coalition Avenir QuÃ©bec will undoubtedly pursue REM expansions.

By: AJ

AJ — Thu, 08 Jun 2017 23:05:03 +0000

Not to mention the destruction of green spaces, wetlands (that are vital) and the wildlife that inhabit these locations. https://technoparcoiseaux.org/

By: ant6n

ant6n — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 02:03:45 +0000

The better connection of the CP tracks to the Metro exist via Vendome, where the transfer is relatively short and convenient. Lucien l’Allier is also shorter than Gare Centrale, and could be made even better via a second concourse on the West Side of the station, as you mention. Roofing should make the station adequate. If the station were operated with quick turn-around times, the capacity issue is moot. Worst case, one flyover/fly-under could double turn-around capacity. Lucien L’Allier is far from great, but I don’t see how the terminal is ‘indadquate’ except for aesthetic reasons. Certainly not a valid reason to spend a billion dollars.

One should expect that Montreal would eventually build an East-West heavy rail tunnel, continuing the terminal, as many cities have done and are doing right now. The billion dollars could’ve already created an underground connection to about Gare Centrale, once the Palais-des-Congress is reached, the over-dimensioned autoroute 720 could provide a right of way to get to the other end of downtown for cheap.

Regarding democratic control – I think my point was pretty clear that right now the problem is that transit policy is too much driven by political considerations on the one hand and private interests on the other. What this means is we should have a public organization that has the expertise to plan transit, with participation of the public, with public consultation, public oversight, and with the public interest at its heart. So my point is as yours.

By: Justin

Justin — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 01:15:55 +0000

â€¢ The AMT abolition was announced in April 2015, a full year before the REM project was announced to the public public. The Caisse had already received its mandate by this point. However, it’s doubtful the issues are directly related. The CMM had been asking for years to have control over transit planning, and by 2015 the CMM was mature enough and the AMT was weak enough (after the JoÃ«l Gauthier/Train de l’Est scandal, etc.) for the announcement to be made.

â€¢ The metro/train connection at Lucien-L’Allier is not really preferable to Bonaventure/Central Station; both are outrageous, but for different reasons. Lucien-L’Allier could be mitigated with a bank of elevators, however.

â€¢ The ADM-via-CN project wasn’t about using Central Station at any price, it was about avoiding the mess that is Lucien-L’Allier terminal. If the dreaded Molson Centre had not destroyed Windsor Station in 1996, the ADM would happily have had the airport train terminate there. Without that option, they were not willing to accept the CP line because of its inadequate terminal (designed and built at a time when the commuter traffic at that point was one-third what it is today, and probably expected to stagnate or decline, so with no room for expansion â€“ this was before the AMT existed).

â€¢ The AMT made several attempts to obtain a proper downtown terminal for the CP Lakeshore line. There was a proposal to bring the CP tracks onto an elevated viaduct over the Ville-Marie tunnel and have them enter Central Station via Place Bonaventure; a proposal to bring the tracks a short distance south over Saint-Antoine Street to a new terminal on the southwest corner of Peel & Saint-Antoine (where the Queens Hotel used to be), connected to the great hall of Windsor Station by a pedestrian passage over the street; and finally a modest proposal to enlarge Lucien-L’Allier terminal on its current site to make it at least adequate for the passenger levels it serves. The first two, which were ambitious ideas, would have needed a high-quality architectural design and a careful public relations campaign to go anywhere. Instead the AMT hired generic engineers and allowed the lacklustre reports to be rejected at first glance by the city.

â€¢ Transit planning should not be under democratic control; it needs a balance between priorities expressed through elected representatives and intelligent technical solutions from people who understand technologies and operations. Too much political input â†’ the Toronto mess over Scarborough rapid transit. Planners in a vacuum â†’ the metro plans of the 1970s with stations and even whole lines in the wrong places. Also, we build so little transit that there is a lack of experience to inform expertise.

â€¢ If you want to trace the problem back even farther: A serious proposal to build a Union Station was made in February 1929. (Central Station, 1943, is its much-diminished outcome.) The station would have been on CN lands but accessed from both CN and CP tracks. Unfortunately, at that time CP would have nothing to do with the idea of collaborating with the hated rival in its home city, and in any case the Depression began not long afterwards. The failure to integrate the CN and CP networks in the 1930s and the later abandonment of both CP terminals (Viger and Windsor) has left us with difficult unsolved problems, 80 years afterwards.

By: AJ West

AJ West — Thu, 30 Jun 2016 19:26:32 +0000

How do we get you on a committee or something? I would support an Anton Dubrau political campaign, you’re spot on!

By: ant6n

ant6n — Wed, 29 Jun 2016 21:10:18 +0000

Nice finds, emdx!
That Place-des-Arts station is insane. So many mezzanine levels, including a level with cars!

By: emdx

emdx — Wed, 29 Jun 2016 20:57:54 +0000

I found a drawing of the station under Place-des-Arts:

http://emdx.org/photos/mirabel/GareSousPlaceDesArts.jpg

and the map of the proposal (which, finally, also used the Deux-Montagnes line).

http://emdx.org/photos/mirabel/carteTRRAMM.png

I am fairly positive that this sent Drapeau in a frothing frenzy; imagine! Good suburban transit! That would bleed MontrÃ©al dry!

By: emdx

emdx — Wed, 29 Jun 2016 05:21:00 +0000

Rapid transit to airport is used by travelers, yes, but their greatest number of users are airport employees. This is why premium services like in Toronto or OrlyVal in Paris are total failures. On the other hand, Oâ€Hare subway connection is very popularâ€¦ Then, airport trains for Dorval & Mirabel are nothing new. I have seen several proposals for Mirabel, in the 1970â€s, one going to Mirabel via the CPR and the others using the obvious Deux-Montagnes line. The project via the CPR was the most grandiose; from Park Avenue station, the train would have gone through a totally new 4 km tunnel under Park Avenue, with a deep underground station at Place-des-Arts, and a deep terminus roughly under Place-Ville-Marie & Central station, with a corridor to Windsor station. There would have been station stops at Park Avenue, Bordeaux, St-Martin, Ste-Rose, Ste-ThÃ©rÃ¨se, St-Janvier and Mirabel. Rolling stock would have been catenary-fed with high-platforms. One proposal with the CNR Deux-Montagnes line actually had a spur going to Dorval airport, via the Downey spur, then via a new track along montÃ©e St-RÃ©mi (slightly east of montÃ©e Des Sources) going around the airport and with a terminal probably parallel to the airline terminal. The trainâ€s main purpose would have been to connect with Mirabel airport, with some trains going to downtown MontrÃ©al, just like the REM would do.